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Who wins Game 7


bill0755
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Well....guess my only hope now is for Ovy and the Caps to run into their kytonite in Marc Andre Fluery in the finals and get sooooo close but get beaten by MAF who goes on to win his first Conn Smyth and Vegas does the IMPOSSIBLE and wins the Stanley Cup in their inaugural season....what a story for the ages!!!!

 

I can’t believe that Tampa Bay lost 3 of 4 games at home in the ECF.

 

Wilson meet Mr Reaves and Mr Engelland......

Edited by bill0755
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Guess the signing of Giradi and trade for McDonough did not work out as well as Stevey Y was expecting and he is committed to them at $7.7 combined for next season. I am afraid the newer faster NHL pace for defenseman might not work with those two slower defenseman in your lineup. 

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I'd like to point out. That if Bossy came forward in time. A talent like his would have elevated his game. Trained like the players trained today. I understand it's all conjecture when dealing with eras. 

  • Most consecutive 50+ goal seasons: 9
  • Most 50+ goal seasons (not necessarily consecutive): 9 (tied with Wayne Gretzky)
  • Most 60+ goal seasons (not necessarily consecutive): 5 (tied with Wayne Gretzky)
  • Highest goals-per-game average, career (minimum 200 total goals): .762 goals per game
  • Most power-play goals, one playoff season: 9 (tied with Cam Neely)
  • Most consecutive hat tricks: 3 (tied with Joe Malone, who accomplished this twice)

Injured at 30 . who knows how many more times he could have lit the lamp.

 

Tied with the GOAT for 2 of those records. 

 

Until records are broken .. and records get broken ... speculation isn't a leg to stand on.

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I think the only fair way to compare players across eras is to compare them relative to their contemporaries.

 

During Bossy's career, the Islanders had 3,322 goals, of which Bossy scored 573 (17.2%).

 

So far in Ovechkin's career, the Caps have 3,093, of which Ovechkin scored 607 (19.6%).

 

If you look at the top goal scorers in Ovechkin's era... his 607 dominates the next best... 411, 384, 382, 379, 375.  His goals per game is also tops... 0.61 to Kovalchuk/Stamkos's 0.52 and Crosby's 0.48.

 

Bossy also dominated goal scorers in his era (with the exception of Gretzky, of course)... 573 for Bossy to Gretzky's 543 and Dionne's 461.  Trottier is 4th with 378.  Looking at goals per game, Bossy is second to Gretzky... 0.86 to 0.76.  And ahead of Kurri's 0.68 and Tim Kerr's 0.61.

 

And then, of course, you have to look at the NHL as a whole... in Bossy's era there were 24 different teams that combined for 61,085 goals (2545 goals per team).  In Ovechkin's era, 33 teams have combined for 85,953 goals (2604 goals per team).  Of course, that's only 10 seasons for Bossy vs. 12.585 seasons for Ovechkin.  So goals per team per season for Bossy... 254.5.  Goals per team per season for Ovechkin... 208.32.

 

This assumes that the players each played full seasons.  Worth noting that Bossy missed some time over his career... a total of 48 games, or 4.8 games per season.  Ovechkin has missed 63, or 5.0 games per season.  So factoring that in... Ovechkin has scored 22.8% of the Caps' goals in games that he's played.  Bossy scored 18.3% of the Isles's goals in games that he played. 

 

So I guess I'd conclude...

 

If Ovechkin played in Bossy's era for an average team, averaging approx 3.18 goals per game, and if he played the same number of games as Bossy (752)... you could argue that he'd score 545 goals.

 

And if Bossy played in Ovechkin's era for an average team, averaging approx 2.54 goals per game, and if he played the same number of games as Ovechkin (1003)... you could argue that he'd score 466 goals.

 

 

 

So I've spun myself in a circle.  All in all, I think I'd say Ovechkin's the "greater" goal scorer, mostly on the grounds that he has nearly a full 0.1 goals per game more than the next guy.  Bossy wasn't even the most productive goal scorer of his era... that goes to Gretzky.  

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1 hour ago, James said:

I think the only fair way to compare players across eras is to compare them relative to their contemporaries.

 

During Bossy's career, the Islanders had 3,322 goals, of which Bossy scored 573 (17.2%).

 

So far in Ovechkin's career, the Caps have 3,093, of which Ovechkin scored 607 (19.6%).

 

If you look at the top goal scorers in Ovechkin's era... his 607 dominates the next best... 411, 384, 382, 379, 375.  His goals per game is also tops... 0.61 to Kovalchuk/Stamkos's 0.52 and Crosby's 0.48.

 

Bossy also dominated goal scorers in his era (with the exception of Gretzky, of course)... 573 for Bossy to Gretzky's 543 and Dionne's 461.  Trottier is 4th with 378.  Looking at goals per game, Bossy is second to Gretzky... 0.86 to 0.76.  And ahead of Kurri's 0.68 and Tim Kerr's 0.61.

 

And then, of course, you have to look at the NHL as a whole... in Bossy's era there were 24 different teams that combined for 61,085 goals (2545 goals per team).  In Ovechkin's era, 33 teams have combined for 85,953 goals (2604 goals per team).  Of course, that's only 10 seasons for Bossy vs. 12.585 seasons for Ovechkin.  So goals per team per season for Bossy... 254.5.  Goals per team per season for Ovechkin... 208.32.

 

This assumes that the players each played full seasons.  Worth noting that Bossy missed some time over his career... a total of 48 games, or 4.8 games per season.  Ovechkin has missed 63, or 5.0 games per season.  So factoring that in... Ovechkin has scored 22.8% of the Caps' goals in games that he's played.  Bossy scored 18.3% of the Isles's goals in games that he played. 

 

So I guess I'd conclude...

 

If Ovechkin played in Bossy's era for an average team, averaging approx 3.18 goals per game, and if he played the same number of games as Bossy (752)... you could argue that he'd score 545 goals.

 

And if Bossy played in Ovechkin's era for an average team, averaging approx 2.54 goals per game, and if he played the same number of games as Ovechkin (1003)... you could argue that he'd score 466 goals.

 

 

 

So I've spun myself in a circle.  All in all, I think I'd say Ovechkin's the "greater" goal scorer, mostly on the grounds that he has nearly a full 0.1 goals per game more than the next guy.  Bossy wasn't even the most productive goal scorer of his era... that goes to Gretzky.  

 

It's science

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James nails it here.

To add to his research, if you do the math, the goalies in Bossy's era allowed an average of almost exactly one more goal a game than those in Ovechkin's era.

As James noted, Bossy averaged 0.76 goals a game over his career.

Ovechkin has averaged 0.61 goals a game in 13 seasons with the Caps.

The Caps have scored an average of 2.90 goals a game from 2005 to 2018. So, if those same teams were in Bossy's era, they'd have scored 3.90 goals a game.

Over his career, Ovechkin has, on average, accounted for .209 percent of the Capitals' scoring, so if you correlate the math, he would have scored 210 more goals in Bossy's era (his .209 percentage of Washington's extra goal in every one of Ovie's 1003 games played).

That would give Ovechkin 817 career goals or .815 per game, compared to Bossy's 0.76. So it's close, but Ovechkin is the better goal scorer.

If I get time, I would like to do this for the Rocket, too.

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Nhl.com's stats engine is truly incredible. Makes all of this research relatively easy to do. It's just a matter of picking the data points that are most relevant. 

 

It is maybe a little unfair to use percentage of team's goals as a focal point. Ovechkin has played with some great players, but bossy had to share with trottier his entire career. Trottier of 9 consecutive 30+ goal campaigns, 5 of them 40+

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58 minutes ago, James said:

For a more complete picture we should probably be weighing things like TOI, power play goals, power play goals as a percentage of total goals, shooting percentage, shooting percentage vs. League average, etc. 

 

Yeah, you could go incredibly complicated by bringing in all those stats and gain an even more accurate picture, but I think that's getting too complex for our purposes here. Time on ice would be even more accurate than games played, but PP goals is tough to quantify because who spent more time on the PP in their career? Who had more PP goals vs their PP time on the ice? Not sure if you can calculate that. Shooting percentage was ridiculously higher in Bossy's era, so I think the only true comparison of it is what I've already done: take the average goals against average of goalies in Bossy's era (I calculated this at work, so I don't have the numbers in front of me) and compare against the average of goalies in Ovie's era. It's almost exactly 1 goal a game higher in Bossy's era.

I think the reason my math works just fine as a comparison is that it uses the two things that haven't changed at all in the history of hockey: Players take shots and score goals, and goalies make saves. Each era has different variables of how many saves vs. how many goals. You just need to use one as a control.. 

In this case, Bossy's era is being used as a control and you can pretty much teleport any player in NHL history into it using math.

We are simply supposing that Ovechkin played with everyone he's always played with - they've all just been moved to Bossy's era. Ovechkin would still score the same percentage of his team's goals, hence how I came up with my figures.

I bet Gretzky is higher than both, though.

Edited by originaljroc
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I dont think we should underestimate the contents of Ovechkin's luggage on his  time travel back to Bossy' era. 

 

Should he arrive empty handed, he would have to make due with the heavy wooden stick and clunky booted skates that were the norm of the day. And the training regimen that todays athletes are put through has them being finely tuned instruments of speed and strength.(Phil Kessel excluded of course.)

 

Bossy was known mostly for his quick release. I shutter to think what Bossy could do in todays world with a whip for a stick.

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12 minutes ago, Ralphdog said:

I dont think we should underestimate the contents of Ovechkin's luggage on his  time travel back to Bossy' era. 

 

Should he arrive empty handed, he would have to make due with the heavy wooden stick and clunky booted skates that were the norm of the day. And the training regimen that todays athletes are put through has them being finely tuned instruments of speed and strength.(Phil Kessel excluded of course.)

 

Bossy was known mostly for his quick release. I shutter to think what Bossy could do in todays world with a whip for a stick.

 

Agreed, there would be technological differences. There would also be way more clutching and grabbing in Bossy's era. Ovechkin's shot isn't exactly a slouch either, though.

But none of that actually matters. All that matters is the math. Again, goalies let in one more goal a game in Bossy's era; hence Ovie's Caps would have scored one goal a game there. Or, to bring the conversation to the modern era, Bossy's Islanders would have scored one less goal a game today, despite the technological changes.

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I don't even think Bossy is number 2.

 

Gretzky and Bossy's NHL careers overlapped for 8 seasons. During that time frame, Gretzky scored 543 goals to Bossy's  451.

 

In terms of single seasons, Gretzky outscored Bossy five times and they tied once  (1979-1980). 

 

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I think we forget to count gretzky as a great goal scorer because he wasn't the same kind of sniper that we generally think of now... honestly I'm too young to know if bossy was that kind of player, too. But gretzky was definitely a great goal scorer in the way that Crosby is... It's like his third or fourth best attribute, but he still did it better than almost anyone else.

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When you look at the yearly leaders for goals, Ovie clearly dominates this era.

 

Other players who dominated for long stretches of time include Gretzky for much of the 80s, Phil Esposito for much of the 70s, and Bobby Hull in the 60s

 

That Gordie Howe guy was ok too, though he did have some stiff competition in the Rocket.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/goals_yearly.html

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45 minutes ago, Festivus Bastards said:

What if Ovechkin had Mike Bossy's hockey stick though.

 

what if Bossy had Ovi's stick....

 

Things that make me go hmmm.

 

And what about Guy Lafleur

Guy,Guy,Guy

 

My boyhood hero, met him as an adult at a book signing ,was nervous as hell standing in line wondering what I would say so being the idiot I am,I asked him to ask me anything about his career ,he asked me his 1st hat trick and I rambled on ( knew it though) ,after about 2 minutes of rambling he said I think you know more about my career than I do

 

Not in the goal scorer class of Ovi or Bossy though but by far my fav player ever.

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