Matthews $15Mill AAV

[Kresco]

Reported that Matthews will look for a long term contract worth $15 Mill AAV. the other side of the report is that the leaf's will not give this contract away easily. So my question(s) are:

 

1) Does Matthews get his $15 mill AAV in Toronto?

   a) How many years does he sign?

2) If not where does he go?

    a) Do the leaf's trade his rights? or does he walk as a UFA

               i) what does that return look like?

b) What does he sign with his new team for?

[Dougall]

1) Yes he does. Guessing max 8 years to get this cash. He will retire as one of the greatest franchise players of all time (statistically speaking...lets see on cups)

 

2) He will not leave. The Leafs will not trade his rights. Return is moot. New team is non existent.

 

As all here know I am a die hard Leafs fan and this is not fanboy Scott typing this, it is rational thinking Scott. There is a zero percent chance he goes elsewhere (0.1 if you don't believe in absolutes). The cap will be increasing and no team will just give away that amount, but he will earn it. The fact remains that he is a top 3 player in the league (McDavid & Draisaitl the other two...yes all three are better than MacKinnon who is 4th) and you cannot look at old contracts as comparable, as they are dated. It will happen.

[Festivus]

Arizona baby LOL

[weeoiler]

Arizona baby II

[leevaughn]

On 1/4/2023 at 11:33 AM, Dougall said:

The fact remains that he is a top 3 player in the league (McDavid & Draisaitl the other two...yes all three are better than MacKinnon who is 4th) and you cannot look at old contracts as comparable, as they are dated. It will happen.

Except there is only 1 cup winner in your group. A team sport and only 1 has gotten to the pinnacle . Leading his team the whole way.

It's really hard for me to agree he's #4 . It's hard for me to agree that McDavid is one of the greatest ever .. for all his points, flash and pizazz there is no cup.

Cups make you the best.

Rings make Jordan the GOAT over Bronny and Kobe,  

 

[Raken65]

3 hours ago, leevaughn said:

Except there is only 1 cup winner in your group. A team sport and only 1 has gotten to the pinnacle . Leading his team the whole way.

It's really hard for me to agree he's #4 . It's hard for me to agree that McDavid is one of the greatest ever .. for all his points, flash and pizazz there is no cup.

Cups make you the best.

Rings make Jordan the GOAT over Bronny and Kobe,  

 

So Rick Chartraw with his 4 Stanley Cups is a greater player than McDavid?

 

I get the Cup thing but not winning a Cup doesn't take away from the greatness of a player.

[leevaughn]

2 hours ago, Raken65 said:

So Rick Chartraw with his 4 Stanley Cups is a greater player than McDavid?

 

I get the Cup thing but not winning a Cup doesn't take away from the greatness of a player.

Where in my statement did you pick up that nonsense? 

We're talking elite players. 

[Raken65]

24 minutes ago, leevaughn said:

Where in my statement did you pick up that nonsense? 

We're talking elite players. 

You said McDavid isn't one of the greatest cause he hasn't won a Cup

 

That statement is nonsense period.

[leevaughn]

56 minutes ago, Raken65 said:

You said McDavid isn't one of the greatest cause he hasn't won a Cup

 

That statement is nonsense period.

Nah.. you have to be a champion to wear the moniker of the greatest.

[Dougall]

4 hours ago, leevaughn said:

Nah.. you have to be a champion to wear the moniker of the greatest.

Not 100%. No one has also said McDavid is the greatest yet.

 

I’m saying that Matthews, McDavid and Draisaitl are the best three players in the league right now. Talent wise, no one is better…cups don’t rank your skill in a team game. I’d also say regardless of position but I’ll listen to Shesterkin or Vaselevsky arguments, but still disagree. MacKinnon, Makar and Josi are ridiculously good as well, but again lesser than the three I mentioned.

[leevaughn]

3 hours ago, Dougall said:

Not 100%. No one has also said McDavid is the greatest yet.

 

I’m saying that Matthews, McDavid and Draisaitl are the best three players in the league right now. Talent wise, no one is better…cups don’t rank your skill in a team game. I’d also say regardless of position but I’ll listen to Shesterkin or Vaselevsky arguments, but still disagree. MacKinnon, Makar and Josi are ridiculously good as well, but again lesser than the three I mentioned.

I'm saying it's intangibles that make you a top player. (These are skills) The Next gear. Defense. Leadership. The Sheer will to win. The Claude Lemieux effect. The ability to "show up"  when it counts.

MacKinnon has it.  That's why he can't be ranked 4th because his talents surpass putting the puck in the net.  

 

Tage Thompson is out-scoring Draisaitl and Matthews by a good shot. Why isn't he on the list . In fact in the last 29 games the kid has 52 points and Connor Mcdavid has 53.

Draisaitl has 44 and Matthew has 37. Night in and night out a 36 year old Sidney Crosby leaves more on the ice than any of these guys.  They are top talent in the league. The big draw at the ticket booth. I don't think they can be called 1 2 3  until they have a cup.  I don't think Matthews has ever been top 5 in points. He's one of the best goal scorers out there but perhaps it's the rest of his game that's lacking.

I here a lot of fans complain about McDavid cherry picking a lot. Fuckin hate guys that Cherry Pick.. Where's the Defense? Put up all the goals you want but if your leaving the boys in the zone out to dry on the back check then a huge aspect of your game is missing.  I have no complaints about Draisaitl, love the guy.

Where's Kucherov? Multi Cup Winner)  He is definitely in this conversation. Jason Robertson is another that gets the nod here. 

I don''t say this with the bias of a habs fan , there are a few guys I would rather see leading my team than Matthews that haven't been mentioned here. 

 

[Dougall]

2 minutes ago, leevaughn said:

I'm saying it's intangibles that make you a top player. (These are skills) The Next gear. Defense. Leadership. The Sheer will to win. The Claude Lemieux effect. The ability to "show up"  when it counts.

MacKinnon has it.  That's why he can't be ranked 4th because his talents surpass putting the puck in the net.  

 

Tage Thompson is out-scoring Draisaitl and Matthews by a good shot. Why isn't he on the list . In fact in the last 29 games the kid has 52 points and Connor Mcdavid has 53.

Draisaitl has 44 and Matthew has 37. Night in and night out a 36 year old Sidney Crosby leaves more on the ice than any of these guys.  They are top talent in the league. The big draw at the ticket booth. I don't think they can be called 1 2 3  until they have a cup.  I don't think Matthews has ever been top 5 in points. He's one of the best goal scorers out there but perhaps it's the rest of his game that's lacking.

I here a lot of fans complain about McDavid cherry picking a lot. Fuckin hate guys that Cherry Pick.. Where's the Defense? Put up all the goals you want but if your leaving the boys in the zone out to dry on the back check then a huge aspect of your game is missing.  I have no complaints about Draisaitl, love the guy.

Where's Kucherov? Multi Cup Winner)  He is definitely in this conversation. Jason Robertson is another that gets the nod here. 

I don''t say this with the bias of a habs fan , there are a few guys I would rather see leading my team than Matthews that haven't been mentioned here. 

 

 

That's pretty strong Leafs hate IMO. You mention intangibles and other skills and then dismiss Matthews because he isn't leading in points. He plays a full ice game and backchecks hard. I see it every day living in the Toronto bubble that he is a strong leader and does all of the extras in all three zones. Winning one cup does not make you better.

[leevaughn]

1 minute ago, Dougall said:

 

That's pretty strong Leafs hate IMO. You mention intangibles and other skills and then dismiss Matthews because he isn't leading in points. He plays a full ice game and backchecks hard. I see it every day living in the Toronto bubble that he is a strong leader and does all of the extras in all three zones. Winning one cup does not make you better.

I believe you. 

I'm not saying Matthews isn't one of the best players in the league.  I'm saying a player needs the points and  the intangibles. 

Mackinnon has proven it by leading his team to a cup. The other three have not. That makes him the better player. The ability to lead your team to the win using all aspects of the game . That is what makes a guy the best player in the league. 

The playoffs and the Cup should not be dismissed when ranking a player. 

The bias is in ranking McDavid and Draisaitl 1 and 2 when they are losing. (it's the coaching, it's the defense. it's the injuries, it's the goaltending) al the excuses in the world for years. At what point do we take a look at these two and realize they might not have what it takes to lead or play the team game. (yet?)

At this point it's fair to say Matthews is the better player because he's leading Toronto into the win column night in and night out.

Winning is what they are paid to do...... in a team environment. That's what makes a player the best.

 

When and if they win a cup the discussion changes. My Toronto Bias had me picking them as one of my favorite's to win the cups this year . Do not mistake my ability to think logically even though Toronto sucks hahaha

[Ralphdog]

In my mind, when discussing the best players in a team sport, the hardware and championships are extras. The best players are the ones that can do things at a level that others simply cannot.  To say McDavid isn't in the top 3 players in the league is blasphemous to the point of absurdity.  That guy is a human highlight reel. No other player in the league today can consistently undress the opposition on the regular and score or dish the way he does it. The NHL hasn't seen that type of player since Jagr, and before that Lemieux. 

 

As for the argument that you need championships to be seen as the best, I would agree if we were talking about tennis or golf. Not in a team sport. There are too many other factors that go into winning a cup, including the 22 other player's on the team and their individual capabilities. By that logic, had Ray Bourque not hung on long enough to win a cup he couldn't be in the conversation as one of the greatest dmen of all time. And Marcel Dionne shouldn't be considered among the best of his time. 

 

If the argument is that McDavid is not one of the top three players today, but he could be in June doesn't make sense to me. My two cents.

[Ralphdog]

4 hours ago, leevaughn said:

I don't think they can be called 1 2 3  until they have a cup.

I would like your top 3 sir....

[leevaughn]

1 hour ago, Ralphdog said:

In my mind, when discussing the best players in a team sport, the hardware and championships are extras. The best players are the ones that can do things at a level that others simply cannot.  To say McDavid isn't in the top 3 players in the league is blasphemous to the point of absurdity.  That guy is a human highlight reel. No other player in the league today can consistently undress the opposition on the regular and score or dish the way he does it. The NHL hasn't seen that type of player since Jagr, and before that Lemieux. 

 

As for the argument that you need championships to be seen as the best, I would agree if we were talking about tennis or golf. Not in a team sport. There are too many other factors that go into winning a cup, including the 22 other player's on the team and their individual capabilities. By that logic, had Ray Bourque not hung on long enough to win a cup he couldn't be in the conversation as one of the greatest dmen of all time. And Marcel Dionne shouldn't be considered among the best of his time. 

 

If the argument is that McDavid is not one of the top three players today, but he could be in June doesn't make sense to me. My two cents.

 

I have never said any of these guys are bad player and not to be considered the best in the game. Not once. Not ever even implied it.  What I am saying is that Nathan Mackinnon has shown a skill set that none of the others has shown. His dismissal to 4th best is to be reconsidered because he has lead his team to the pinnacle of the sport. 

 

Dougall said "The fact remains that he is a top 3 player in the league (McDavid & Draisaitl the other two...yes all three are better than MacKinnon who is 4th) and you cannot look at old contracts as comparable, as they are dated. It will happen."

 

Team play and leadership are skills in a team sport.   Extremely important ones when the team has to be better than every other team. Leadership on and off the ice. Many of the players on that Avalanche team have never played better hockey before. Leadership plays a huge role in that.  

 

Tage Thompson is lighting it up but the small sample size does not make a great, even though he is out preforming all 4 of those guys. 

Kaprizov could be in the conversation couldn't he? He has no Draisaitl or Marner or Nylander or RNH or Landeskog and Rantanen or Makar or .....  his guy is 36 year old Zuccarello who is having his best season to date. Why is he not in the conversation? Sample size?

 

So sample size it is. My sample size has 1 of those 4 players winning the cup while playing elite top of the league hockey while the others haven't. 

 

That is why Mackinnon is currently #1 and should be on any list of who is the best right now.

 

 

[Ralphdog]

29 minutes ago, leevaughn said:

 

I have never said any of these guys are bad player and not to be considered the best in the game. Not once. Not ever even implied it.  What I am saying is that Nathan Mackinnon has shown a skill set that none of the others has shown. His dismissal to 4th best is to be reconsidered because he has lead his team to the pinnacle of the sport. 

 

Dougall said "The fact remains that he is a top 3 player in the league (McDavid & Draisaitl the other two...yes all three are better than MacKinnon who is 4th) and you cannot look at old contracts as comparable, as they are dated. It will happen."

 

Team play and leadership are skills in a team sport.   Extremely important ones when the team has to be better than every other team. Leadership on and off the ice. Many of the players on that Avalanche team have never played better hockey before. Leadership plays a huge role in that.  

 

Tage Thompson is lighting it up but the small sample size does not make a great, even though he is out preforming all 4 of those guys. 

Kaprizov could be in the conversation couldn't he? He has no Draisaitl or Marner or Nylander or RNH or Landeskog and Rantanen or Makar or .....  his guy is 36 year old Zuccarello who is having his best season to date. Why is he not in the conversation? Sample size?

 

So sample size it is. My sample size has 1 of those 4 players winning the cup while playing elite top of the league hockey while the others haven't. 

 

That is why Mackinnon is currently #1 and should be on any list of who is the best right now.

 

 

False

[leevaughn]

18 minutes ago, Ralphdog said:

False

That's why I'm the brains of this operation! 

[leevaughn]

Every GM, every Coach, every player even McDavid himself (unless he is a complete narcissist) will tell you they would rather have a cup than 150 point player.

To not account for leadership and winning in the best player argument is like is not judging the sauce of the best poutine.

You Sir, are contrary with no validity.

Edited January 7, 2023 by leevaughn

[Ralphdog]

Sure, rings matter. No denying it. I just don't believe that the Av's won the cup because  Mckinnon willed it. That's a huge stretch. The amount of talent on that Av's team was sick stupid. Kadri playing out of his mind, Cale Makar setting new standards for d-men, Rantanen who can put the team on his own back, a captain that goes through brick walls in Landescog, the 17th best goalie in history by save percentage, Arturri Lehkonen playing like a conn smythe winner, the revelation that was Nichushkin and the list goes on. Did Mack's leadership help bring the cup home? Of course it did. But the majority of the credit for that should go to Joe Sakic and the management team, and the failings or shortcomings of Peter Chiarelli and Ken Holland should not be hung on the shoulders of McDavid.

 

Do you think if you air dropped McDavid into Mackinnons jersey last year, the Av's would've been worse off?

Edited January 7, 2023 by Ralphdog

[leevaughn]

6 minutes ago, Ralphdog said:

cup because  Mckinnon willed it

You guys stretch my words a lot.. Like really a lot.

 

8 minutes ago, Ralphdog said:

 

Do you think if you air dropped McDavid into Mackinnons jersey last year, the Av's would've been worse off?

I'm no crystal ball owner.

 

 

As for the rest. To assume that any of the Avs players are leaps an bound above the Oilers players is absurd. There is parity in this league. You throwing around the AVs names like there is no Draisaitl and RNH . Kane is a beast. Avs have a step up in the D department with Makar but Nurse  is one mean mother who had a hell of a year. Bouchard and Barrie are pretty fuckin dope in my opinion.

 

Lekhonen played like he was inspired or something. As did Kadri.  As did that whole team. It's called Leadership.

 

As for Goaltending .. Kumeper and Smith had a hell off a Playoffs last year. Smith cracked 2 shutouts and was kicking ass until they ran into Mackinnon and the AVS and lost in 4 straight. 

 

Even in the head to matchup. Mackinnon had more points per time on ice than McDavid. Mcdavid had 15 minutes more ice-time in the series.  Mcdavid went scoreless in one game. His two big nights of 3 points each were fruitless because they lost. 

 

Perhaps if the oilers started playing a rounder game that was less McDavid centric their goaltending would fair better? 

 

So is the so called best player in the game a detriment to his team and because this is a team sport does that negate him from being the best player?

I think so. 

 

This all stands to change in the future but as of right now I can only work with the information I have. 

[leevaughn]

McDavid is definitely the most offensively gifted player in the league. I will say that. That doesn't make him the best player.

[leevaughn]

Well that was interesting. 

[leevaughn]

10 hours ago, leevaughn said:

Well that was interesting. 

I was referring to the "fuck this losing shit" 1st goal and 11 shots Mack put up against the Oilers yesterday. 

 

Skinner was lights out.  Well done. Mcdavid had some sick chances. Draisaitl was frustrated as fuck. I wanted to see Hyman get the hats.

 

[Festivus]

Lee I hear an echo in here.

 

I think you're alone now.

There doesn't seem to be aany one aaround.

 

LOL